tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post114653230463886090..comments2023-09-28T02:51:46.723-05:00Comments on Korean Language Notes: What is the history of Ulleungdo? (Ch. 1)Gerry Bevershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1148461158190635222006-05-24T03:59:00.000-05:002006-05-24T03:59:00.000-05:00Thanks for your information Gerry, but unfortunate...Thanks for your information Gerry, but unfortunately I can't read Korean language. <BR/><BR/>I can only talk a little words, but basically I have respect for Korean people. So please don't misunderstand me Korean people, I just want to pursue the truth in order to make a true friendship with Koreans!<BR/><BR/>Gerry, why can't you tell your theory to the Korean Government? We need some kind of movement to establish a friendship between Japanese and Korean people. <BR/><BR/>To make Korea more democratic country, freedom of speech and freedom of press are essential. But unfortunately Korean world is not yet so democratic... if somebody praises Japan he would be arrested or would receive a good beating. But we have to change such situations in Korea.<BR/><BR/>What do you think?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1148446453849314422006-05-23T23:54:00.000-05:002006-05-23T23:54:00.000-05:00Thanks Ken,Yes, I wish I could read Japanese, but,...Thanks Ken,<BR/><BR/>Yes, I wish I could read Japanese, but, at least, I have some Japanese material translated into Korean that I am using.<BR/><BR/>I agree. Korea's textbooks, and many Koreans' attitude about history need to change. There are a few Koreans who seem to recognize the problem, even though they still support Korea's claim on Dokdo/Takeshima. Kim Byeong-ryeol is one of them. He believes in presenting both sides of the debate, which is something I respect about him. If you can read Korean, I can recommend the following two books:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://dadamedia.co.kr/shop/mall/detail.htm?ass_code=AS1052900512&p_code=p1112250649" REL="nofollow">"독도가 우리땅인 이유! 독도 논쟁"</A><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://dadamedia.co.kr/shop/mall/detail.htm?ass_code=AS1052900512&p_code=p1055121710" REL="nofollow">"독도에 대한 일본 사람들의 주장"</A>Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1148424783033271042006-05-23T17:53:00.000-05:002006-05-23T17:53:00.000-05:00Hi Gerry,Great job! Your theory looks right and it...Hi Gerry,<BR/>Great job! Your theory looks right and it's what the Japanese book "Takeshima Wa Nikkann Dochira No Monoka" (Which Country Does Takeshima Belong?) says : http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4166603779/qid=1148424177/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/503-7930161-5600745<BR/><BR/>The problem is why the Korean government educate Korean people in wrong way. Their textbook of history is full of distorted stories, while they denounce a Japanese textbook!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147607284910516282006-05-14T06:48:00.000-05:002006-05-14T06:48:00.000-05:001693-1696, An, Yong Bok 安龍福 states before the Pref...1693-1696, An, Yong Bok 安龍福 states before the Prefect 太守 of Houki Province 伯耆州: “松島則于山島此亦我國也... 傾年吾人來此處以鬱陵于山等島定以朝鮮界.<BR/>"Matsushima is the same as Usando. This is beongs to my state. I was here last year and confirmed by these places Ullung and Usan Choson territory."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147606903193815042006-05-14T06:41:00.000-05:002006-05-14T06:41:00.000-05:001656년, 輿地誌: 鬱陵于山皆于山國地.于山則倭所爲松島也. Geographical Gaze...1656년, 輿地誌: 鬱陵于山皆于山國地.于山則倭所爲松島也. <BR/>Geographical Gazette, "Ullung Island and Usan Island are all in the territory of (the old) State of Usan. Usan is exactly what the Japanese call Matsushima "Pine Island.........Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147509954172071502006-05-13T03:45:00.000-05:002006-05-13T03:45:00.000-05:00Annonymous,Concerning the 1710 map you sent me wit...Annonymous,<BR/><BR/>Concerning the 1710 map you sent me with two lines drawn to Ulleungdo and Usando (one from Samcheok and one from Uljin), I would like to revise my explanation.<BR/><BR/>At the time, Ulleungdo and Usando were under the local administration of Uljin, but I think Uljin (울진) was under the administration of Samcheok (삼척), similar to towns in a county being under the administration of authorities in a town recognized as the county seat. In order words, Ulleungdo and Usando were considered part of the village of Uljin, which was in the area administered by authorities in Samcheok. So the line drawn from Uljin may be showing which village the islands were considered a part of, and the line drawn from Samcheok may have been showing the regional adminstrative authority they come under.Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147348176954240372006-05-11T06:49:00.000-05:002006-05-11T06:49:00.000-05:00There was no measurement technique of an accurate ...There was no measurement technique of an accurate distance in the 15<BR/>th century. <BR/>Japan is also the same. <BR/><BR/>http://www.geocities.jp/tanaka_kunitaka/takeshima/t-takeshima.gif<BR/><BR/>It is a map of Takeshima and Ulleungdo in Japan of 1724. <BR/>It is being written 70 ri (280km) between the Oki island and Takeshima. Actually, it is 160km. It can be judged Takeshima from shape and the composition of the islands, and the size is also considerably different from the fact. <BR/><BR/><BR/>I do not think that you should strictly think about ri.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147344735803800332006-05-11T05:52:00.000-05:002006-05-11T05:52:00.000-05:00By the way, Kazu, the distance from the north shor...By the way, Kazu, the distance from the north shore of Ulleungdo to the south is only about 9.5 kilometers, not 40, and the distance from the east shore to the west is about 10 kilometers. If my theory is right, that would give a modern 地方(지방) of 19.5 kilometers. If we divide 19.5 kilometers by 100 "ri," we would get a 0.195 "ri." And then if we multiplied that by the 800 "ri" distance to the mainland, then we would get 156 kilometers, which would take us pretty close to Donghae on the Korean mainland, which is 161 kilometers away.Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147344606369525352006-05-11T05:50:00.000-05:002006-05-11T05:50:00.000-05:00> why did the Koreans change the name from Usanguk...<B>> why did the Koreans change the name from Usanguk to Ulleungdo? </B><BR/><BR/>I think that Usando(于山島) of the 15th century is an island of the lie. <BR/>The first reason is a record of King Taejong of 12 years. Baek Ga-mul(白加勿) is reporting that surroundings on the Yusangukdo(流山国島) are 8sik(96km). The Yusangukdo(流山国島) is not Ulleungdo(鬱稜島) because Baek Ga-mul moved from Ulleungdo(鬱稜島). Actually, because such an island doesn't exist, it is understood that it is an island of the lie. <BR/><BR/>The second reason is that Usando(于山島) in the map(八道総図) is very large. It is the same size as Ulleungdo(鬱稜島). Ulleungdo(鬱稜島) is also considerably large dependence actually. The island doesn't actually exist in the west of Ulleungdo(鬱稜島). The island of the same size as Ulleungdo(鬱稜島) doesn't exist either. <BR/><BR/>< Usando (Yusangukdo)><BR/>・In April, '12 of Records of King Taejong : 8sik of surroundings. (96km in surroundings)<BR/>・17 of Records of King Taejong: The size is uncertain. <BR/><BR/>< Ulleungdo ><BR/>・Samguksagi: All sides 100 ri(120km in surroundings)<BR/>・In September, '16 of Records of King Taejong: 7sik of surroundings. (84km in surroundings)<BR/>・In June, '18 of Records of 世宗: East and west and the south north are 50 ri (80km in surroundings). <BR/><BR/>The adjustment can be taken if it is thought that the map(八道総図) was made from these records.<BR/><BR/>----------------------------------<BR/>Comment at 8:00 AM KST<BR/><I>男女共六十餘, 今移居本島<BR/>Now we have moved to the main island and are living there.</I><BR/><BR/>This translation is wrong. "本島" indicates the mentioned island. It becomes a meaning "this island or that island". Yusangukdo Island is indicated. <BR/><BR/>ex.<BR/>"本日" is a meaning of not the main day but today.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147340667168366992006-05-11T04:44:00.000-05:002006-05-11T04:44:00.000-05:00Hi Kazu,I realize that Koreans often used characte...Hi Kazu,<BR/><BR/>I realize that Koreans often used characters to represent the sounds of a syllable without meaning to transfer the meaning of the characters, but Usando (于山國 - 우산국) and Ulleungdo (鬱陵島 - 울릉도) have different sounds, so why did the Koreans change the name from Usanguk to Ulleungdo? <BR/><BR/>I think that instead of preserving the sound of the name of the island state, they chose to preserve the meaning of it. At any rate, I think it is more than just coincidence that the Chinese characters for Usan (우산) and (우릉) mean basically the same thing.<BR/><BR/>Koreans translate 地方(지방) and 四方 (사방) as having the same meaning. In Korean documents, the 지방 is given as one number, not as two, so that is why I think it is the sum of the north-south and east-west distances. <BR/><BR/>I also think that Koreans used a measure of "ri" shorter than 0.4 kilometers. On <A HREF="http://dokdomuseum.go.kr/images/full01_043.jpg" REL="nofollow">this</A> Korean map, the water route between Ulleungdo and the Korean mainland is stated as 800 "리" (水路八百里 - 수로팔백리). If you multiplied 800 "ri" by the 0.4 km measure, it would total to 320 kilometers, which is more than twice the distance from Ulleungdo to the nearest point on the mainland. From Imwonri, Samcheok-gun in Kangwon Province (on the mainland) to Ulleungdo the distance is only 134 kilometers, from Donghae to Ulleungo it is 161 kilometers, and from Pohang it is 217 kilometers. So, as you can see, the 0.4 "ri" does not work with this map.<BR/><BR/>Also, on the same map, the distance from Daemado (Tsushima) to the Korean mainland is given as 470 "ri" (水路四百七十里), which would be 188 kilometers using the 0.4-kilometer "ri." However, the actual distance from Daemado (Tsushima) to Busan is only about 50 kilometers. Again, the 0.4 km measure does not work.<BR/><BR/>So what measure of "ri" was the mapmaker using? Well, we can calculate it by dividing the actual distances to the mainland by the 800 and 470 "ri" measures. That would give use the following results:<BR/><BR/>134 km / 800 "ri" = 0.17 "ri / km<BR/>161 km / 800 "ri" = 0.2 "ri" / km<BR/>217 km / 800 "ri" = 0.27 "ri" / km<BR/>50 km / 470 "r" = 0.11 "ri / km<BR/><BR/>We cannot know which measure is correct because the mapmaker does not say from which points on the mainland he was measuring from. At any rate, the map makes me think that there was a shorter measure for "ri" than 0.4 kilometers, and that it was probably 0.2 kilometers or less.<BR/><BR/>If you go to pages 55 and 56 of <A HREF="http://kgeography.or.kr/publishing/symposium/2005/04/02.PDF" REL="nofollow">this link,</A> and look at the two maps of Ulleungdo, you will notice that it has the north-south and east-west distances on the the maps, measured from the central peak on the island to the north and south shores and to the east and west shores.<BR/><BR/>On the map on page 55 (그림 31), the north-south distance is given as 40 "ri" (20 "ri" + 20 "ri"), and the east-west distance is given as 70 "ri" (30 "ri" + 40 "ri"). That would add up to 110 "ri."<BR/><BR/>On the map on page 56 (그림 33), the north-south distance seems to be 60 "ri" (30 + 30) and the east-west distance seems to be either 60 or 70 "ri" (40 + 20 or 30). I am not sure of the east-west distance because, for some reason, the second map gives five distances instead of four.<BR/><BR/>I am not certain if the above is prove that there was a shorter "ri" measure, but it seems to suggest that.Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147333856851671962006-05-11T02:50:00.000-05:002006-05-11T02:50:00.000-05:00Nice to meet you. I am Japanese. The machine trans...Nice to meet you. I am Japanese. The machine translation is used because I am not good at English. <BR/><BR/><I> The Chinese characters used for Usan-guk (于山國) literally mean "Big Mountain >Country." 于 (우) means "big," 山 (산) means "mountain,"<BR/><BR/> Ulleungdo (鬱陵島) literally mean "Luxuriant, Big-hill Island." 鬱 (울) means "luxuriant," 陵 (릉) means "big hill," and 島 (도) means island. Notice that Usan refers to a "mountain" and Ulleung refers to a "big hill." Moreover, notice that in the Samgukyusa, the 鬱 (울) in Ulleungdo was replaced with 于 (우), the same character used in Usan-guk.</I><BR/><BR/>I think that this is a mistake. The Chinese character of a similar pronunciation to ancient Korean was only allotted. It is the same as the expression of dog's cry by the alphabet "Bow bow".<BR/><BR/><I>國 (국) means "country."</I><BR/>This point is correct.<BR/><BR/>地方一百里 means, a piece of Ulleungdo becomes 100 ri. One ri of South Korea is 0.4km(4km in Japan). The south north of Ulleungdo is 100 ri(40km), and east and west is 100 ri(40km).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147283306672319702006-05-10T12:48:00.000-05:002006-05-10T12:48:00.000-05:00Annonymous,The lines are not shipping routes. They...Annonymous,<BR/><BR/>The lines are not shipping routes. They are simply lines draw to show which administrative office the islands belong to. So why are there two lines?<BR/><BR/>Well, Ulleungdo was under the administration of Uljin, I think, and I think the line to Samcheok (삼척) was drawn to show the closest point on the mainland to the islands, which is at Samcheok (134 kilometers away). <BR/><BR/>I think the bottom line intentionally ran through Usando and Ulleungdo to show the connection between the two islands. Otherwise, the line could have easily been drawn around Usando to Ulleungdo, especially if it were a shipping route. As you probably know, a ship cannot travel through an island. <BR/><BR/>The 2-days distance on the line refers to the distance to Usando/Ulleungdo, which shows that the islands are right next to each other, not 92 kilometers apart. If either Usando or Ulleungdo were Dokdo/Takeshima, it would have taken an extra day to get there.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for telling me what the Chinese characters are between the two islands. That was bothering me. Nevertheless, those characters do not refer to a linear distance. They describe the area of Ulleungdo, as is written in several references to the island in old Korean documents. The characters are written between the two islands because there is no room on the islands to write them.<BR/><BR/>The rough waters mentioned in Lee Gyu-won's diary was referring to the waters just in front of Wadalli (와달리), which is on the main island of Ulleungdo, just across from Jukdo. He was not referring to the waters on the shores of Jukdo.<BR/><BR/>Whether you believe that people were living on Jukdo or not does not change the fact that there are still Korean documents that suggest there were, and there is nothing in Lee Gyu-won's diary that says there "were no signs of people residing on Jukdo."Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147280038766196992006-05-10T11:53:00.000-05:002006-05-10T11:53:00.000-05:00Try this.http://img.airspider.com/image/00/80/48/0...Try this.<BR/><BR/>http://img.airspider.com/image/00/80/48/00804853_2.jpgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147279943862608392006-05-10T11:52:00.000-05:002006-05-10T11:52:00.000-05:00That's right Gerry the one line continues though U...That's right Gerry the one line continues though Usando and links to Ulleungdo it goes through the 사방백리 text. The two days travel distance is on the line extending to Ulleungdo not on the Usando boat route. The line runs through Usando because the island was inadvertently drawn on the wrong side. Usando has a boat route totally separate from Ullengdo. It's route is a more northerly route maybe to utilize winds to compensate for the further distance. A rock with a circumference of 10ri, 2kms away from Ulleungdo doesn't need a separate boat route.<BR/><BR/>The Lee Kyuwon diary states as follows "둘레가 십리쯤 되는데 위험해서 올라가지 못하였다." (Jukdo) is 10ri around (ten .4kms ri) around and I couldn't climb up because it was too dangerous. He mentions how hazardous this area is twice he also said his boat was rocking wildly because of the waves and you would want to be extra careful here. This is not a place where you could live let alone want to given ideal conditions a stone's throw away. Leekyuwon's job was to survey the island and to investigate for trespassers etc. If there were signs of people residing on Jukdo he would have mentioned it in his diary given the attention to detail when describing Jukdo. <BR/><BR/>As I mentioned this was in May when Korea's weather is mild. Imagine this island around November through March. Any boats moored here would be smashed to bits during even a modest storm without proper docking or breakwater. Even on a nice day you can see whitewater around Jukdo's shoreline.<BR/><BR/><A> http://img.airspider.com/image/00/80/48/00804853_2.jpg</A><BR/><BR/>As I mentioned the characters say "Sa-bang-baek-ri" It's printed between the islands. This gives doubt as to your theory that this was referring to Ulleundo's land area......Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147276703263981352006-05-10T10:58:00.000-05:002006-05-10T10:58:00.000-05:00Annonymous,Thank you for the blow-up of the Usando...Annonymous,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the blow-up of the Usando-Ulleungdo portion of the "동국여지지도" map. I did not have a close-up view of that map and could not see the small line you were referring to. By the way, for anyone who is interested, you can see the map <A HREF="http://kgeography.or.kr/publishing/symposium/2005/04/02.PDF" REL="nofollow">here</A> on page 44, picture 8. However, the map at this link will not show you the line Annonymous is talking about.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, Annonymous, both lines run to Usando, which is on the west side of Ulleungo. The bottom line looks like it may continue through Usando to Ulleungdo. The top line connects Samcheok (三陟: 삼척) to Usando, and the bottom line connects Uljin (蔚珎: 울진). On the line running from Uljin to Usando and Ulleungdo, the following is written:<BR/><BR/>水路二日程<BR/>수로이일정<BR/><BR/>Translation: "Water route is 2 days distance."<BR/><BR/>So, the map seems to be saying that Usando and Ulleungdo are 2 days distance from Uljin, which implies that the two islands are right next to each other. If one of the two islands were Dokdo/Takeshima, then it would take an extra day to get to it since Dokdo/Takeshima is 92 kilometers past Ulleungdo. So this map is furthur proof that Usando and Ulleungdo were right next to each other, not 92 kilometers apart.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I am not sure what the Chinese characters between the two islands is saying. If anyone knows, please let me know.<BR/><BR/>Annonymous, Lee Gyu-won did not visit Jukdo and did not say anything that would make it "clear" that there were no residents on Jukdo. He simply said that it was too dangerous for them to go up onto the island.Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147231712581178562006-05-09T22:28:00.000-05:002006-05-09T22:28:00.000-05:00Wrong. There are two separte lines one goes to Usa...Wrong. There are two separte lines one goes to Usando one goes to Ulleungdo.<BR/><BR/>What difference does it make which side they are on.<BR/><BR/>At any rate. It's clear by Leekyuwon survey there were no signs of residents on Jukdo.<BR/><BR/>I'll e-mail the image.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147196230152940182006-05-09T12:37:00.000-05:002006-05-09T12:37:00.000-05:00Annonymous,The 동국여지도 map shows Usando west of Ulle...Annonymous,<BR/><BR/>The 동국여지도 map shows Usando west of Ulleungdo, which means the so-called sea routes you are talking about go to Ulleungdo, not Jukdo. At the time, Koreans were still confusing the islands. Now, what is the point you were trying to make?Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147180822236885552006-05-09T08:20:00.000-05:002006-05-09T08:20:00.000-05:00I lost the link Gerry. If you want you'll have to ...I lost the link Gerry. If you want you'll have to find it yourself. I tried like Hell but I couldn't dig up a good picture of it.<BR/><BR/>Anyway the name of the map is the 동국여지도 it's dated around 1710.<BR/><BR/>It is also the map that has 사방백리 between Usando and Ullengdo. I'll try and find it again or I'll check my other computer for the image and e-mail it to you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147159825588672072006-05-09T02:30:00.000-05:002006-05-09T02:30:00.000-05:00By the way, that should be "accommodate" tourists....By the way, that should be "accommodate" tourists.Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147154643336694142006-05-09T01:04:00.000-05:002006-05-09T01:04:00.000-05:00Annonymous,The spiral staircase was build in 1993 ...Annonymous,<BR/><BR/>The spiral staircase was build in 1993 to accomondate tourists, but there were people living on the island before then, so they obviously had a path up the cliffs.<BR/><BR/>Lee Gyu-won said that he did not inspect Jukdo because it was too dangerous, so he would not have known if there were people living on the island or not. <BR/><BR/>Lee Gyu-won did NOT say that "he couldn't climb the sheer cliffs of the sides"; he said it was "too dangerous to go up onto the island." That could have meant that the sea between the mainland and the island was too dangerous or climbing up onto the island was too dangerous, or it could have meant both. <BR/><BR/>Why don't you post a link the map with the sea routes on it that you keep talking about?Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147064068595266162006-05-07T23:54:00.000-05:002006-05-07T23:54:00.000-05:00Gerry the pictures you post of Jukdo today are irr...Gerry the pictures you post of Jukdo today are irrelevant to reality of life on there hundreds of years ago (if they did which I doubt). On some Jukdo pictures you can see they even had to install a spiral staircase to climb the cliffs.<BR/><BR/>If there were any people living on Jukdo Island Leekyuwon would have mentioned it in his survey. The map I told you about shows people were visiting Usando over 180 years<BR/>before his survey on a regular basis. If this were so, they would have been lots of evidence such as paths and houses which he makes no mention of.<BR/><BR/>What he does say is the area has many rocks and it was very dangerous. He also says he couldn't climb the sheer cliffs of the sides.<BR/><BR/>Could people live on Jukdo? Maybe I mean Inuit live in the Arctic.<BR/>But like I said about 2kms next door is fresh water, mooring and arable land.......so why bother? <BR/><BR/>Maybe the early Koreans were hardcore rock-climbers eh Gerry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147020564692191452006-05-07T11:49:00.000-05:002006-05-07T11:49:00.000-05:00Annonymous,If people are living off the rain and s...Annonymous,<BR/><BR/>If people are living off the rain and snow water on Jukdo today, then why couldn't people have lived off of it hundreds of years ago?<BR/><BR/>I have read that Ulleungdo gets more rain than any other place in Korea, a yearly average of about 1,485mm. That averages out to about 4 milimeters a day. I have also read that it gets more snow than anyway else in Korea, with an average snow accumulation of about one meter. With that much snow, they would not have to leave the island in the winter in search of water.<BR/><BR/>And what is proper storage facilities for gathering rainwater? All they would have needed were pots and jars. They could have also gathered water from rocky pools after a heavy rain. <BR/><BR/>A conservative Korean hundreds of years ago was probably much different from a conservative Korean today. For example, I doubt that they took baths as often as Koreans do today or used as much water.<BR/><BR/>There is no reason why Koreans could not have lived on Jukdo, and I have already quoted Korean documents that suggest that they did. <BR/><BR/>By the way, <A HREF="http://blog.joins.com/media/folderlistslide.asp?uid=lachen75&folder=6&list_id=5998358" REL="nofollow">here</A> are some more good pictures of Jukdo.Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147007627862858652006-05-07T08:13:00.000-05:002006-05-07T08:13:00.000-05:00My point is this Gerry. If the cartographer was so...My point is this Gerry. If the cartographer was so good to make maps of this accuracy then why is the "jukdo" so far away and why was the shape of the map altered to accomodate this huge error?<BR/><BR/>I think the Usando is Dokdo and it is appended without a border. The distance was decreased to include it. Some maps of this era simply move islands closer to land to include them within the boundaries of the territory. You will see this often with maps of Korea where Ulluengdo is almost touching the shore of the Korean peninsula. <BR/><BR/>Japanese maps show other territories with appended maps with borders on them.<BR/><BR/>Another thing I mentioned was the fact that the 동국여지도 showed two different boating routes going from Korea to Ulleungdo/Korea to Usando. Why would you need two different routes to go to an island 2kms (that's right about 2kms) away from Ulleungdo?<BR/><BR/>Shipping routes marked on a map shows us a few things. 1.These weren't outlaws or pirates. 2.Regular visits were being made so there must have been a safe place to dock and lodge which Jukdo doesn't offer. 3 The area must have been intrinsically valuable for one reason or another which Jukdo is not. <BR/><BR/>Jukdo has no fresh water, in fact to this day residents still have to gather rainwater for daily usage. They must have proper storage facilities that they wouldn't have had hundreds of years ago. I can't imagine living on a traditional Korean house with a thatch roof during winter blizzards or when a typhoon blows in. Scaling that 300ft wall on a regular basis during the winter would be impossible. <BR/><BR/>Bringing barrels of water up 100 meters on ropes...........Jesus Christ. Gerry have you ever lived in any environment without access to fresh water? Well, I have had the experience and believe me it's no fucking picnic. Do you have any idea how much water even a conservative person consumes per day? It's no coincidence any city or town is located near a source of readily available potable water. <BR/><BR/>It's not possible to include Dokdo island on a map of Korea or Ulleungdo without either appending the island or moving it closer. Even maps of today show Dokdo as a separate inclusive map on another page or an appended box.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147006916870411552006-05-07T08:01:00.000-05:002006-05-07T08:01:00.000-05:00랄라라,You dismiss the Ulleungdo maps by saying that ...랄라라,<BR/><BR/>You dismiss the Ulleungdo maps by saying that Korean mapmaking science at the time was underdeveloped and did not use lines of longitude and latitude, but how much mapmaking science does it take to draw an island and its neighboring islands? <BR/><BR/>Drawing a map of the Korean pennisula and drawing a map of an island that can be sailed around in a day are two different things. A mapmaker would have to be pretty stupid to mistake an island that is ninety-two kilometers away for one that is just a few kilometers away. Korea was regularly sending inspectors to Ulleungdo, so it is unlikely that they got it that wrong.<BR/><BR/>Why should I waste my time arguing with you about the semantics of the Sejong passage when you cannot even admit that the Ulleungdo maps show Usando right next to Ulleungdo instead of 92 kilometers away? It is like arguing that it is too early in the year for snow while staring out the window at a blizzard and two feet of it.<BR/><BR/>I ignored some of your arguments because I felt like you were just blowing smoke, but I will try to address some of them later when I get to that point in my postings. I have been spending so much time writing in my comments section that I have only been able to put up two posts on the subject. I hope you come back later and make more comments when I get more up on my blog.Gerry Bevershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311939520870098017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9424060.post-1147001328529821542006-05-07T06:28:00.000-05:002006-05-07T06:28:00.000-05:00휴.. 이미 위에서 다 말씀드렸던 이야기가 아닙니까. 경위도 측량술이 없었던 당시 사람들에...휴.. 이미 위에서 다 말씀드렸던 이야기가 아닙니까. 경위도 측량술이 없었던 당시 사람들에게 독도의 정확한 경위도 위치와 거리를 요구하는 것은 무리입니다. 다른 섬들의 위치도 틀렸고, 또한 한반도의 위치와 크기도 부정확한데, 어째서 독도만 정확한 위치를 요구하는지 모르겠습니다. 그리고 현대의 지도들 역시 독도를 울릉도 바로 옆에 표시하고 있는 경우가 많습니다. 그래서 보여드렸구요. <BR/><BR/>Gerry님께서 보셨듯이, 태종 16년의 기록에는 무릉도 옆에 작은섬(小島)가 있다고 했을 뿐, 우산도가 있다는 말은 나오지 않습니다. 무릉도 바로 옆의 작은섬(小島), 즉 지금의 죽도가 우산도라면, '곁에 작은 섬이 있다(傍有小島)'라는 말이 왜 나오는지 설명할 수 없습니다. '곁에 우산도가 있다(傍有于山島)'라는 말이 나와야 정상입니다.<BR/><BR/>또한 한국측 기록 역시 울릉도의 동남쪽에 우산도가 있다거나(안용복, 대한신지지 등), 우산도는 일본인이 말하는 송도(마쓰시마; 독도)라거나(동국문헌비고), 두 섬의 거리는 멀지 않아서 맑은 날에 서로 볼 수 있다는(세종실록지리지) 이야기를 보면, 우산도는 현재의 독도가 될 수밖에 없습니다. <BR/><BR/>그런데도 무릉도 바로 옆에 우산도가 있기 때문에 독도가 아니라면, 이에 대해서 더이상 Gerry님께 말씀드리지 않겠습니다. 반박 근거를 제시했는데도 통하지 않는다면, 더 말해봐야 소용이 없겠지요.<BR/><BR/>그리고 기록들이 울릉도와 우산도를 혼동하고 있다고 하셨는데, 그 혼동이라는 것은 태종 12년의 기록 외에 없습니다. 그리고 그 태종 12년의 기록은 유산국도에 살고 있다는 '한 사람의 발언'을 인용한 것이지, 조선정부의 공식 의견이 아닙니다. 이 경우와 유사한 '우산 무릉 일도설(一島說)' 역시 전체 비중에서 1%도 되지 않을 정도로 적고, 99%는 '이도설(二島說)'을 언급하고 있으므로, Gerry님의 태도는 1%를 가지고 99%를 부정하려는 것에 지나지 않습니다.<BR/><BR/>1년전, 노무현 대통령이 제주도에서 열린 한일정상회담에서 독도를 다케시마라고 지칭한 것을 가지고, 수백년 후의 일본인들이 '한국인도 당시 독도를 다케시마라고 불렀다'라고 주장한다면, Gerry님은 옳게 여길 것입니까?<BR/><BR/>Gerry님께서는 저의 반론에 대한 구체적인 반론이 없습니다. 세종실록지리지의 二島相去不遠의 해석 문제도 그렇고, 구체적인 반박 근거없이 그저 일본측의 주장이 옳다는 전제하에 연역적으로 추론하여 인정하지 않고 있을 뿐입니다. <BR/><BR/>저는 Gerry님이 제시한 주장과 자료에 대한 나름대로의 반박과 근거를 모두 실시했다고 생각합니다. 그러나 Gerry님께선 제가 반박했던 이야기를 다시 반복하고 있을 뿐이라 생각합니다. 상대방을 설득하려면 타당한 근거를 같이 제시하셔야 합니다.<BR/><BR/>아무튼 나중에 독도에 관한 자료를 정리해서 올려주신다고 하셨으니, 나중에 시간되면 다시 찾아와서 읽던지 하겠습니다. 다만 Tanaka Kunitaka의 홈페이지에 인용된 자료만을 올리는 일은 없었으면 좋겠군요. 알고 있는 이야기고, 이곳에서도 반박을 했으니 말입니다.<BR/><BR/>그럼 안녕히 계세요.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com